EUROPEUS

I feel that Germany, in consideration of the tragedy of the Nazi era, has a moral obligation to place the Turkish government on notice that the hypocritical statements made by Erdogan show that Turkey has a long road ahead before it is suitable for entry into the EU.

Furthermore the issue of nationalism amongst Turks needs to be refuted by presenting the historical evidence of crimes against humanity perpetrated by the Turkish nation against the non-Turkish ethnic groups that previously inhabited what is now modern Turkey. Germans have taken the hards steps of accepting and apologizing for the crime of the Holocaust and are respected throughout Europe because of this.

The Turkish nation literally got away with murder after World War I when the European powers whitewashed the genocide and forced exile of the Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians from Anatolia during the period from 1915 - 1923. All the posturing about whether Turkey is suitable for EU membership can be ended easily by laying out the historical facts of Turkey's crimes and requesting that the current government acknowledge them. The nationalism inherent in Turkish society is a byproduct of the false belief that the founding of modern Turkey was a noble fight against invading European armies when in reality the nationalist forces under Kemal Ataturk were covertly supported by certain powers - reference martyrsofanatolia.org - in their fight. The destruction of the non-Turkish population of Anatolia was facilitated by the power politics that the European powers played in their dealings with the nationalist Turkish forces. Moral responsibility lies with the current EU nations to at least acknowledge their historical culpability in the murder of millions of Christians by the fanatical Turkish natioanlists.

The most fundamental change that needs to occur in Turkish society is the acceptance of the fact that their country was established through a policy of military aggression, genocide and forced exile against non-Turks.

Ecrit par : Mike | mardi, 12 février 2008

Sometimes political leaders give away their most intimate feelings, through statements made before smaller group than usual...Mr Erdogan fell in this trap. The recent law passed on in Ankara putting an end to the ban of headscarves in Universities is another test for the Turkish society, that will be followed closely in Europe.
And meanwhile, on a totally different chapter of the relations between Turkey and the EU, no move has still been by Turkey made towards an official reckognizing of the existence of Cyprus, one of the E.U State members...

Ecrit par : n.mettra | mardi, 12 février 2008

Erdogan said to integrate but not to assimilate. I can't understand the objections to that.
Integrated minorities learn the language of their hosts, accept their leaders and laws, and respect and immerse themselves in the culture, traditions and economy of the country they live in. People who successfully integrate do not exclude themselves from society and live in ghettos.

Without mincing words, assimilation effectively means giving up ones religion, language and own heritage. This is what Merkel wants without actually saying it. She is the one who needs lessons on this subject, not Erdogan.

Ecrit par : Jos | mercredi, 13 février 2008

Ergogan is hypocritical. He doesn' want that Turks in Germany integrate. But the Kurds, Armemians and every Non-Muslim in Turkey must assimilate . Their culture, language, religion isn't accepted in Turkey. They are oppressed.

Ecrit par : pia | mercredi, 13 février 2008

Jos, of course there is a fine line between assimilation and integration. But we are not talking anymore about the situation in the 60s and 70s, when immigration was about coming to another country, working there for a few years and then going home again, as it was the case for millions of people from Turkey, former Yougoslavia, Italy and other countries.

Today, immigrant families tend to stay in their host countries (which is fine and a source of enrichment to all of us) and the situation is shifting. We are now in the third and fourth generation of immigrant families where the kids receive automatically the nationality of their host countries, do mostly not speak the language of their parents anymore and are torn between cultures. They receive pressure to live like their anchestors in Anatolia, while they groove in Berlin and Paris nightclubs with the German and French kids. These new immigrant generations are of German, Dutch, French nationality and should be allowed to fully blend into their host society. This then becomes assimilation. We are not talking about forcing anybody to deny his roots. The clash becomes obvious with the manyfold cases of "crimes of honor" when Turkish families try to apply archaic rules to kids who now live in western societys. Why must these kids boost on a culture which is not theirs anymore, being forbidden at the same time to fully live their new cultural identity?

By asking his fellow countrymen to refuse assimilation in the long run, Erdogan creates Turkish islands in the host countries, and this can not be the ultimate goal of immigration.

Merkel and other German politics stated that it was not up to Turkey to set the rules for the living together in Germany. Erdogan declarations are some sort of cultural imperialism and this is not what we need to peacefully organize our lifes together in our countries.

Ecrit par : Kai | mercredi, 13 février 2008

This is just "Turkish Light Culture" in the Country of "Deutsche Leitkultur" !

Conservative leaders like Erdogan, Merkel and Sarkozy are a danger for all new born multicultural Europeans.

Ecrit par : marc | mercredi, 13 février 2008

Marc, I do agree. "Deutsche Leitkultur" as a concept is as dangerous as "Turkish Light Culture". Any kind of nationalism is outdated and let's hope that the new generations will be able to overcome this kind of segregation. The politicians you cite are sure not the ones to support such an evolution.

Ecrit par : Kai | mercredi, 13 février 2008

Kai, I don't believe what you say represents reality. The fact is German culture is not very inclusionist. Germany want's some Turkish youth but doesn't want their parents, it accepts the educated and those able to work to stay but all others to leave (even after decades of residence), it uses them as political pawns at local elections but tells Erdogan to mind his own business at the international level, it denies the vast majority of them citizenship even after a lifetime of living there by putting higher hurdles in front of them. So what has Germany really done to help integrate it's minorities? Virtually nothing! It pushes with one hand and pulls with the other and then expects them to assmiliate. Assimilation is a natural process. It won't just happen because a politician demands it. German society as it is today is not conducive to assimilating anybody. It should try harder at truly accepting its immigrants and integrating first. 16,000 people turned up in Cologne looking crying for recognition and acceptance. They got it from Erdogan. What a pity they can't get it from their own 'sometimes' Chancellor.

Ecrit par : Jos | jeudi, 14 février 2008

By the way, it would have been nice of the chancellor to express her condolences for the Turkish fire victims personally and not via a spokesman. Ironically, she had no hesitation personally getting involved with Marco Weiss, a German teenager charged with sexually abusing a 13-year-old British girl in Antalya. Very revealing of her personal attitude towards her Turkish residents I believe.

Ecrit par : Jos | jeudi, 14 février 2008

@ Jos

Merkel has express her condolences for the Turkish fire vitims personally already a few times. You are really bad informed.
It is also not very hard to get the German citizenship. Already around 700.000 people with a Turkish background have the German citizenship and countless other immigrants from other countries are now Germans, too. It is NOT difficult for the "vast majority" of immigrants ot get the German citizenship "after a lifetime" of living in Germany.
And Germany does a lot to integrate immigrants. There are a lot of immigrants who have no problems with life in Germany and feel fully integrated. They have successful and fulfilled lifes in Germany. But there will always be some people who will always complain and will accuse others for all the things which they don't like in their lifes. It is just not very popular to look what oneself can do to improve one's life. It is much easier to look for faults in others and not in oneself.

Ecrit par : pia | jeudi, 14 février 2008

Pia. The reality: less than 1/3 of people of Turkish background have citizenship. The fact is that even if they are born in Germany, children of immigrants are not automatically guaranteed citizenship. They have to earn it by taking German language, history and culture classes. The bar is continually being set higher. But regardless many immigrants don't feel they will ever be accepted.

What makes immigrants frustrated, even if they obtain citizenship, nothing changes in their daily lives. If you apply for a job, you will always be seen as Turkish.

Merkels first response was a comment via her spokesman, definitely not directly. Although a small matter, some things don't go unnoticed. Very impersonal and disrepectful in my opinion.

Ecrit par : Jos | jeudi, 14 février 2008

Merkel visited the site of the fire together with Erdogan and expressed there her condolence. She and Erdogan also had an interview session with school children with an immigration background. She also expressed there her condolence for the fire victims. She even asked for a minute's silence in commemoration of the victims before the session begins. She also state in other interviews personally how sad she is about what happened.

"The fact is that even if they are born in Germany, children of immigrants are not automatically guaranteed citizenship. They have to earn it by taking German language, history and culture classes."

That is not completely true. A child born in Germany get automatically the German citizenship if one parent is legally living in Germany for 8 years and own a at least since three years a unlimited residence permit.

For other immigrants it is more complicated to get the German citizenship but not so hard as you make it sound. A lot of Turks in Germany are fulfilling the criterias for German citizenship but decided against it because they prefer the Turkish citizenship. If every Turk who could get the German citizenship would apply for it, the clear majority of people with Turkish background would be Germans.

And I don't know why it is such a bad thing that immigrants should learn the German language and something about Germany's history and culture. I think it is natural that immigrants should learn something about the country they are living in. Most sensible persons try to inform themselves about their new home all of their own. It is much easier to live in a country when you are not ignorant about the national language, laws, culture, customs, and so on. I can't imagine to live in a country for years whithout knowing something about it. And it is very hard to live in a country when you can't speak the national language.

"But regardless many immigrants don't feel they will ever be accepted. What makes immigrants frustrated, even if they obtain citizenship, nothing changes in their daily lives. If you apply for a job, you will always be seen as Turkish."

Yes, there are prejudice people living in Germany who don't make it easy for immigrants. But immigrants can still live a happy life in Germany. It is not as if they aren't allowed to practice their culture, speak their native language and have their own religion. It is also not impossible to get a good school education and a good job. There are a lot of very successful immigrants in Germany who proved that you can make something out of your life if you really want.

"16,000 people turned up in Cologne looking crying for recognition and acceptance. They got it from Erdogan."

The problem is that no sensible person should take Erdogan's "assimilation" statement serious. I can't imagine that he would hold the same speech before Kurds in Turkey. Turkey's current history of integration is much much worse than Germany's. Minorities in Turkey have it much harder than minorities in Germany. So he is really the wrong person to demand anything from Germany.
It was just one big political propaganda speech mainly for people in Turkey to distract from the headscarf issue.

Ecrit par : pia | jeudi, 14 février 2008

Living in a foreign country is never easy in the first place. And it's sure not getting easier by trying to live in a foreign country exactly the same way as one did in his or her home country, especially when there is a real cultural or even religious gap. However, integration, and in the long run assimilation, depend first of all of the attitude of the immigrating person.

But perhaps we should first define what "assimilation" means. It is not some kind of "unfriendly take-over" of a person into a culture this person does not want to belong to. It is a full blending in into a host society (mostly after a few generations) and there are many examples of very successul assimilations in Europe. The vast majority of Asia rooted immigrants in France (some 2 million) are perfectly assimilated, which means that they live like every average Frenchman WITHOUT anybody asking them to deny their roots. They show great respect for the civilization of their host country and the host country pays back the same respect for their cultural roots.

But frankly, it's about time to change some old prejudices about Germany. Germany is the European country which systematically welcomes the highest number of refugees in Europe. During the crisis in Bosnia, Germany welcomed more refugees than all other European countries combined. While I totally disapprove the new German way of having immigrants pass language and culture tests before granting the nationality (many, many Germans would fail in this test by the way), Pia is right. It is relatively easy to obtain the German nationality. But then, go two generations further on. Kids born in Germany (or France, or Belgium or Holland), having the nationality and Erdogan popping up and asking them to remain Turkish until the end of times. So, what are these kids? Turks with a German passport? Germans with a Turkish background? Germans with a German culture? Is Erdogan their political leader?

Imagine the situation the other way round: Merkel holding a speech in front of 16000 Turkish people with German roots, asking them to hold up the German flag and culture. Hard to believe that Erdogan would take it with a smile.

After the sharp reactions on Erdogan's speech, it would have been helpful if Erdogan had found some words of explanation. We are still waiting.

People in Germany and in Turkey (and elsewhere) still mourn the 9 deads of Ludwigshafen. The cause of the fire is still unsettled and yes, sad enough, there still is the possibility that this was a racist attack. We will learn about this and German authorities will be transparent in this process. In this delicate and sad situation, it is a shame to try to boost any kind of nationalism - it won't help anybody to lead a better life.

Ecrit par : Kai | jeudi, 14 février 2008

"A lot of Turks in Germany are fulfilling the criterias for German citizenship but decided against it because they prefer the Turkish citizenship"

This is an interesting observation. Perhaps German politicians should reflect on this for a while. Isn't it odd behavior for immigrants to live for decades in country, educate their children, work, invest in homes and businesses, generally have a better living standard their than their country of origin and then to decline German citizenship for a country they are unlikely ever to move back to permanently? It couldn't have anything to do with a feeling of not belonging could it? A feeling that no matter what they do they will always be seen as Turks first and not true Germans citizens. Perhaps the disappointment of politicians who use them as political footballs for the sake of a few right wing votes.

Don't misunderstand me. Although Germany is a great country with mostly good people, German society as it is today is not very conducive to assimilating its immigrants. The mentality (or silent hope) has been for a long time that all these immigrants would just pack up and go home.

Ecrit par : Jos | vendredi, 15 février 2008

Is the glass half empty or is it half full? Are these people refusing the German citizenship because they are treated so bad or because they arrive with a heavy dose of nationalism they are not prepared to quit?

And again, it starts with the basic question of what is immigration, integration and assimilation. Is immigration just going elsewhere and trying to set up a little copy of "home"? Is integration about providing an effort to respect the culture of the host country (instead of just asking that the host country slowly converts into a big copy of "home")? Is assimilation a sort of cultural rape where the immigrant is stripped naked from all his cultural belongings?

Living together means efforts from BOTH sides to come closer. It is easy to blame politicians and the bad society for everything. But what about the responsability of the immigrant to participate in a real living together? A society can not integrate an individual, but an individual can integrate into a society. But this requires a desire to integrate (and to assimilate on the long run).

And yes, Jos, the first immigration waves in Germany were scheduled to come, work for a few years and then return home. This was the deal then. And, by the way, this was the case in virtually every European country and not only in bad old Germany. This scheme fully reflected what these first immigrants wanted. There was no talk about integration, because this simply was not the issue for anybody by the time. But today, the situation is different, because many immigrants come to stay, which is fine, but which raises other issues at the same time. We have now third and fourth generations of immigrants and now, the question of integration and assimilation becomes more important.

The situation is the same in France. Remember a few years ago, when France played a friendly football match in Paris against Algeria? The Paris suburb kids, mostly born in France, bearing the French citizenship, whistled during the French anthem and proudly waved the Algerian flag. Is this the ultimate goal of immigration? Generations of kids torn between cultures? The same kids who spit on France are themselves regarded weirdly when they happen to travel to Algeria, because they are not considered "real faithful" anymore. They do not belong anywhere anymore.

Speeches like the one Erdogan held are just likely to trigger even more fears within the population. And again: imagine Angela Merkel holding a speech in Istanbul in front of 16.000 (out of some 70.000 Germans living in Turkey today) fanatic Germans, waving the German flag and singing songs in a language nobody else can understand and Merkel asking them to never, ever become Turkish. Would Turkey appreciate and then start to think what could be done to better integrate these Germans?

We all have to provide every resonable effort to overcome nationalism and religious barriers. But this does not only apply to the host countries, but also to the immigrating persons. So, Erdogan's speech was a step into the wrong direction.

Ecrit par : Kai | vendredi, 15 février 2008

I am not surprise that a lot of Turks don't change their citizenship. The Turks think that their culture is the best in the world. Every other culture is extremely inferior to theirs and the very strict Muslims among the Turks even think that western lifestyle is highly immoral. Erdogan even said in his anti assimilation speech that it is a "crime against humanity" to assimilate in Germany's culture. He demanded from all people with a Turkish background to remain Turks regardless where they live and for how long. The Article 301 of the penal code against "insulting Turkishness" and the laws in regards to the Turkish flag prove that "Turkishness" is regarded as a extremely important characteristic for every Turk. People who come from Turkey have internalise the importance of "Turkishness" and teach that to their children. The Turkish media (TV, papers) which are available also in Germany strengthen those thoughts among them.

It is also not helping that Turkish papers write practically continuous bad things about Germany and Germans. When a single German politician or other German with media attention make a comment which isn't in the interest of Turks, it is everytime regarded as the opinion of the WHOLE German population. After the fire in Ludwigshafen, Turkish papers implied at once ALL German are Nazis. Even if they will prove that it was really an attack by some immigrants haters, that still don't mean that suddenly ALL Germans will start to burn buildings in which Turks live. Objective journalism is really not a strength of those papers.

So why should Turks change their nationality if that would mean to be really part of an in their opinion inferior, immoral culture. A citizenship change would also mean that they would regard Turkishness as not the most important thing in the world. Some of their relatives in Turkey wouldn't be very elated about this.

There is also the fact that SOME are planning to move to Turkey or they like to have at least the option to do this easily. Nearly 37 000 Turks from Germany move to Turkey in 2003.

And there is also not any big disadvantage to NOT change their citizenship. Most of them have an unlimited residence permit and don't have to fear that they have to suddenly leave Germany.

Integration is not a one sided thing. BOTH sides have to move. Sadly a very loud Turkish minority are absolutely not interested to move a bit from their position and they gave all Turks a bad image among Germans. They are only demanding without moving a bit from their points of view. Many don't like woman equality. Force marriages and domestic violence against woman is much more common among them than among Germans. They are still some Turks who think that honour killings of woman aren't wrong.

Germans have already make a step towards them. They got their mosques, there are Turkish classes in some schools, many public swimming bath have a time when only woman are allowed to swim, girls and woman can wear headscarf in school and at the university, there would even be Islam classes in school if the very heterogen group of Muslim could agree about what to teach which they can't.

In contrast to this many Turks try to live in their own world. There are city district where you won't hear a German word. Shops, hairdresser, bakers don't advertise for their products in German. Especially older housewifes speak not a word German because they don't come in contact with it. They don't need German for work, there are Turkish papers and on every house is satellite dish so that there isn't even the need to watch German television as entertainment. They don't even TRY to integrate a little.

I think it is not a too big demand when German people expect from them to learn German and get at least a little involve in German culture. If they would move a little towards German culture, it would be much easier for the average German to really accept them. Immigrants from other countries have a much better integration history. You won't find any big city district of Poles, Italians, Russians, Greeks, ... because they usually tend to mingle more with the native population. It is also more common that the children and grandchildren of those immigrants think of themselves as Germans.

Ecrit par : pia | vendredi, 15 février 2008

Well, there is not a single positive experience in the world when immigrants are pushed into cultural ghettos in their host countries. This always leads to cultural clashes and (rational and irrational) fears in the population(s). But, and I fully agree with Pia, ghettos are not necessary. As soon as an immigrant population does not try to set up a "copy of home", it simply blends into society and after a few generations, these immigrants tend to assimilate. And this is the crucial point - the individual responsability of the immigrant.
It is a very easy and superficial attitude to blame the host societies for the lack of integration and strange enough, this "victimization" tends to apply only to Muslim immigration population.

While it is taken for granted that a European woman (and also men) travelling to Muslim countries has to respect a very tight code of conduct, including clothes ("cover your hair" = wear the veil, even if this is not part of your own cultural identity), the same rules do not seem to apply the other way 'round. Why?

And there we get to the most basic of all questions about immigration: Do the host countries have to adapt to the way of life and cultural codes of their immigrants or do immigrants have to adapt to the way of life and cultural codes of their host countries? The answer seems obvious and a person who is not willing to respect the cultural codes and conduct of a host country better stays home, where everything is organized to these high valued rules.

Ecrit par : Kai | dimanche, 17 février 2008